Posts by Old Goat

4

"THE LAST TRUMP"

by biblexaminer in

in re "the last trump"bro.

h. b. rice, editor and publisher of the last trump, has been obliged by circumstances beyond his control to suspend its publication.

knowing that such a course was probable, we two months ago proposed to bro.

Old Goat

You can follow Schulz and de Vienne's current research here: http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/

4

"THE LAST TRUMP"

by biblexaminer in

in re "the last trump"bro.

h. b. rice, editor and publisher of the last trump, has been obliged by circumstances beyond his control to suspend its publication.

knowing that such a course was probable, we two months ago proposed to bro.

Old Goat

There's a biography and photograph of Hugh Brown Rice in Schulz and de Vienne's book, Separate Identity, Volume 1. http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/b-w-schulz/a-separate-identity-organizational-identity-among-readers-of-zions-watch-tower-1870-1887/paperback/product-21546337.html Here is part of it:

Hugh Brown Rice

H. B. Rice entered the picture through a letter to Barbour. He became a prize convert whose interest was cultivated by both parties. Hugh Rice was born in Eden’s Ridge, Tennessee, on October 6, 1845.[1] He “united with” the First Presbyterian Church in Knoxville in 1859 and attended East Tennessee University at Knoxville where he won a twenty-dollar prize for “declamation,” or public speaking in 1867.[2] He completed college preparatory classes and his freshman year there. He enrolled in Amherst in September 1867, where he was a member of the Psi Upsilon fraternity.[3] Rice graduated in 1870 and enrolled in Amherst’s Auburn Theological Seminary where he “was for a time.”[4] He may also have attended Christian Theological Seminary, a Disciples of Christ seminary in Rock Island, Illinois.[5]

He “preached for a short time among the Presbyterians.”[6] Rice was ordained as a Disciples of Christ minister at Webster, Illinois in 1872. One of his first assignments was the Disciples of Christ congregation at Washburn, Illinois, and a history describes him as one of a group of worthy ministers who were held in “high esteem” by the congregation.[7] He was also pastor of a Disciples congregation at Rock Island, Illinois. By 1875 Rice was a Disciples evangelist in California where he was pastor of congregations in San Francisco and Oakland.[8]

Edmund Gruss, seldom accurate, and Zygmunt, asserted that Rice had been a Millerite.[9] Basic research – simply finding his birth date – disproves this. Rice was never an Adventist. He was, however, attracted to Age-to-Come belief as represented by The Restitution. In the mid 1870s David Renner from Illinois and a “Brother” Wagner preached the One Faith message in California. Rice and his wife attended their meetings and were convinced. In March 1878, one of their number, Thomas Hughes, recounted this and the formation of a small group of believers:

We started together not quite one year ago, but prior to this, Brothers Renner and Wagner had introduced the one faith and truth to be found only in the Bible to the people and created not little wondering among sects; and to the brethren mentioned, through their kind words and influence of God’s Word (for it is influential to those that are not blinded) sister Wagner (now diseased), myself and wife were immersed by Bro. Renner into the truth – the one faith, and the glorious promises of the soon coming kingdom of our dear Master. Oh! Happy day for us when we were brought to see the truth. Since then we have had Brothers Corbaley, of Hearldsburg, and [Benjamin] Wilson of Sacrament, Cal. With us, and many a pleasant hour we had together.[10]

When Thomas Hughes wrote (late February or very early March 1878), their small congregation numbered eleven souls, including “Rice and wife at Sacramento.” Rice was still associated with the Disciples of Christ, though he had started to preach the One Faith message. Rice wrote that he preached “some seven years among the ‘Disciples,’ but that, seeing the way of the Lord more clearly in reference to the life eternal and the gospel of the kingdom, I was baptized on the confession of this faith by Brother Richard Corbaley in Yale County, Cal., in 1878 or ’79.”[11]

By January 1879 Rice was fully committed to the new doctrine and resigned from the Disciples ministry. He wrote to his parent church at Oakland:

To the members of the Central Christian Church, of Oakland, Cal.

Since I am at present considered as a member of your body, and as a minister in good standing among the disciples of Christ (as you think it right to call yourselves); and since I have recently changed my views concerning the commonly named doctrines of the immortality of man, the state of the dead, and the kingdom of god, I feel it is my duty to withdraw from your body.

I would not willingly and knowingly misrepresent you. I desire to do towards others as I would have them do towards me. I disclaim all unkind feeling, and avow the most friendly emotions towards you all personally.

I have received only generous treatment from the church of which you are members, and cannot, therefore, be moved in this stand from any but the strongest convictions of duty. These convictions are based on a careful and independent examination in the Book of God in the honest desire and full determination to accept its teachings at all hazards.

While, then, I reject your teachings on the subjects specified as but the teaching of men, making void the word of God, I have the warmest and most charitable feelings for you all personally.

I beg you to consider this resignation and withdrawal from you (as a religious body) as positive and final.

Most respectfully,

Hugh B. Rice

West Oakland,

Jan. 10, 1879

The Oakland church published his letter in The Christian Standard.[12] They recommended a withdrawal of fellowship: “H. B. Rice has gone out from us not being of us, as clearly shown by said letter. We do recommend that the church withdraw its fellowship from H. B. Rice, and that his name be dropped from the church book.”

H. B. Rice contacted Barbour in late 1878, his first letter to Barbour appearing in the January 1879, Herald of the Morning:

Some one, I know not who, has sent me several copies of your paper which I have read with interest; indeed for years I have been deeply interested in everything pertaining to the second advent.

Your views are new to me, and I never like to take up with a new teaching without investigation. [I] have been preaching among the Disciples for six or seven years. I do not want to be led away by fanciful interpretations; nor do I want to miss any light which God has made it possible for me to receive. I notice that you apply John 16, “guide us into all the truth” to the gospel church; do you mean directly by the Spirit imparting new revelations to Christians of the present day, or that through the Scriptures we may be led into all truth? If the latter, I am with you, otherwise not.

[1] Several birth locations are given for H. B. Rice. Among them is Rogersville, Tennessee. The Samuel Moore Bible Record has an entry for his birth: “Hugh Brown Rice was borned October 6th 1845 on Monday 2 O’clock P.M.” No location is noted.

[2] Lucius S. Merriam: Higher Education in Tennessee, Bureau of Education Circular of Information No. 5, 1893: Contributions to American Educational History, No. 16, Government Printing Office, Washington, D. C., 1893, page 69.

[3] W. Maxwell: Greek Letter Men of the Pacific Coast and Rocky Mountain States, College Book Company, New York, 1903, page 220

[4] H. B. Rice to Editor The Restitution, September 1, 1887.

[5] General Catalogue of the Auburn Theological Seminary Including the Trustees, Treasurers, Professors, and Alumni: 1883, Daily Advertiser and Weekly Journal Printing House, Auburn, New York, 1883, page160.

[6] H. B. Rice to Editor The Restitution, September 1, 1887.

[7] N. S. Hays: History of the Disciples of Christ in Illinois: 1819-1914, The Standard Company, Cincinnati, 1915, pages 451-452.

[8] General Catalogue of the Auburn Theological Seminary Including the Trustees, Treasurers, Professors, and Alumni: 1883, Daily Advertiser and Weekly Journal Printing House, Auburn, New York, 1883, page160.

[9] E. C. Gruss: Apostles of Denial, page 33.

[10] Thomas Hughes to S. A Chaplin as printed in the March 13, 1878, issue of The Restitution. Richard Corbaley was a native of Indiana, the first white child born in Indianapolis. He was a minister of the Church of God (One Faith) and was Marshall County, Indiana, clerk. He died in 1903 in or near Los Angeles, California. (See N. W. Durham: History of Spokane and Spokane County, J. S. Clarke Company, 1902, volume 2, page 808.) Included in this small group were members of the Kimball family of Stockton. The Kimballs connect to one of the authors of this book through his Great-Great Grandmother’s first marriage.

[11] H. B. Rice to Editor The Restitution, September 1, 1887.

[12] The Case of H. B. Rice, The Christian Standard, March 22, 1879, page 90.

4

Interesting comments on WT history

by Old Goat in

i'm old, a retired history prof, and still interested in watch tower history.

i'm a fan of schulz and de vienne's work.

schulz has written a short overview of the next book in their series.

Old Goat

Well, Smid, they aren't writing a polemic but a history. They document doctrinal development in their first volume, and I understand there is some of that in the forthcoming second volume. The things you suggest are really fodder for a history of the Rutherford-Knorr era. Russell's doctrine remained remarkably stable until his death.

4

Interesting comments on WT history

by Old Goat in

i'm old, a retired history prof, and still interested in watch tower history.

i'm a fan of schulz and de vienne's work.

schulz has written a short overview of the next book in their series.

Old Goat

I'm old, a retired history prof, and still interested in Watch Tower history. I'm a fan of Schulz and de Vienne's work. Schulz has written a short overview of the next book in their series. You can read that here: http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/

1

How Watchtower History should be written.

by Old Goat in

if you've read my previous posts and comments, you know i'm a fan of schulz and de vienne's history books and their blog:.

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

dr. de vienne posted a rough draft of some of their current research, destined for volume 2 of separate identity.

Old Goat

If you've read my previous posts and comments, you know I'm a fan of Schulz and de Vienne's history books and their blog:

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/

Dr. de Vienne posted a rough draft of some of their current research, destined for volume 2 of Separate Identity. I love research at this depth even if it may bore you silly. Take a look.

44

i'm leaving this site forever

by stan livedeath in

as the title says--i'm out of here for good.. the site is full of atheists, communists, 7th day adventists, creationists, believers, deceivers, receivers, football supporters,.

dodgy types, cantleave---and assorted wankers.. so no place for me--because i'm none of the above so dont fit in.

so--this is goodbye forever my friends--its been almost average knowing you.

Old Goat

When you're still a virgin at 50, disappointment is everywhere.

4

Interesting Bit of History

by Old Goat in

some of you have read schulz and de vienne's separate identity, vol 1. a rough draft of a chapter meant for vol 2 is on their blog http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ .

some don't like history at this depth, but i do.

give it a look.

Old Goat

Some of you have read Schulz and de Vienne's Separate Identity, vol 1. A rough draft of a chapter meant for vol 2 is on their blog http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ . Some don't like history at this depth, but I do. Give it a look. They like comments and I'm interested in your reaction. I like the sometimes not so subtle comments on Russell's reasoning. I think they are exactly right.

41

Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

Old Goat

Chryssides is male. de Vienne is not. Personally, I'd include Separate Identity in his list of major works. I think it is story-changing.

De Vienne's review touched on the Jewish issue in Rutherford's day. This doesn't add any thing. Rutherford did indeed express reservations about the society's management, expressing them to Russell. This is in the original documentation His concerns were narrowly focused, relating only to the election process.

We sometimes wish an author addressed our pet issues in more detail. Both de Vienne and Persson fall into that in their reviews, though Rachael de Vienne tells you up front that's what she's doing. Chryssides presents the blood issues in a manner appropriate to a generalist history.

We approach books such as Chryssides from our own viewpoints. Perrson has a personal agenda that shows through in the blood comment. Is Penton's last revision the better book? In some ways, certainly. But they do not approach the matter in the same way. Penton does not address contemporary Witness social structure to the same depth. I have both books. You should too. And if you ignore Schulz and de Vienne's two books, you've made a serious mistake.

Other than Rutherford raising the issue of the legal form of elections with Russell, Perrson's comments on the 1918 schism are accurate. I still recommend Chryssides' book, though it is obscenely expensive.

I agree with this:

Lieu 2 hours ago

Biased people can't read unbiased information without complaining and focusing on minor errors. We should all know that from JWism.

With each book of research, we glean more and more information. Looks an interesting read.

On the question raised about the date of Jesus birth: Most scholars disagree with the Watchtower by from two to four years. Scholars have been wrong before. I've never seen a good refutation of the Watchtower's reasoning, but I've never perused it either. Sorry, I don't have a well-founded opinion on that issue.

41

Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

Old Goat

It will be Separate Identity vol. 2. You can't search for their book there. What they do is post bits, occasionally whole chapters of the new work. Most of the longer posts are temporary. They put them up for comments, removing them or truncating them later. I check the blog at least once a day, and I contribute research as I can. Several do that. You can see it in the comment trail.

Sometimes they just post a query, a "can you help with this?" question. Or they ask about a reference they can't find. In time a section of new research pops up. They ask that you don't repost it elsewhere. The early day's Watch Tower you thought you knew is false. They write good stuff. And they don't much care if they offend someone in the process. Their goal is to produce an accurate, well-told tale.

41

Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses

by Old Goat in

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.

the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.

i agree with dr. de vienne's review.

Old Goat

Dear Scenic,

Yes, Dr de Vienne tells me it's about two-thirds done. I've read some of the most recently finished chapters in rough draft. So many things I did not know. One of these is about early clergy interest. There was a surprising amount of that. Another is about the earliest evangelists, people the Watchtower ignores, or sometimes people the "Society" doesn't even know about. It's certainly a different story than the Proclaimers book tells.

You can follow their research on their history blog. Link was posted earlier.

People on this board who are certain they know Russell or Rutherford's story make me laugh. They don't.